---
section: Library
booktitle: "The Last Testament, Vol 1"
booktype: "Discourses"
bookcode: "LAST1"
dategiven: "10 August 1985 pm"
place: " in Jesus Grove"
chapternum: "Chapter #24"
chaptertitle: "None"
acode: "8508105"
shorttitle: "LAST124"
audio: "Yes"
video: "Yes"
esttime: "93mins"
displaytitle: "The Last Testament, Vol 1: Chapter #24"
---

```style
.sutra {
  font-style: italic;
  white-space: pre-wrap !important;
}
```
<!--This file is automatically generated. Do not edit!-->
> [!info]
> Note
>
[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]
INTERVIEW WITH MARCEL BRUYNS TROS NATIONAL TV, THE NETHERLANDS
Q:* BHAGWAN, ABOUT YOUR HEALTH. HOW ARE YOU DOING?


A:* Just great.
Q:* YOUR DISCIPLES LAUGHING IN THE BACKGROUND, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY LAUGH?


A:* Just my presence is enough for them to laugh, rejoice, sing, dance. I am here.
Q:* HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE THE MASTER OF HALF A MILLION PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD?


A:* Groovy.
Q:* BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE BEEN SILENT FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS. WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO SPEAK UP AGAIN?


A:* Because the world is at a very great crisis. The politicians have brought the world to the ultimate destruction of this beautiful planet. It has to be stopped.
Q:* HOW CAN YOU DO THAT?


A:* Just by spreading my red people around the earth; creating more and more silence, peace, meditativeness; destroying people's old programs of being American, Russian, Indian, Dutch, German; destroying their old ideas of being Mohammedan, Christian, Jew, Hindu. Because this whole earth is ours, all the boundary lines of nations should disappear. Only then there is a guarantee there is not going to be a war in the future. I am for one world, one government. if nations are there, then war is inevitable.
Q:* BHAGWAN, RECENTLY YOU MADE AN ATTACK ON THE CHURCHES AND ON MOTHER TERESA CALLING HER A CRIMINAL AND BLAMING HER FOR THE POVERTY AND THE ANGUISH IN THE THIRD WORLD. DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT LIFE IS GOD-GIVEN?


A:* There is no God.
Q: WHAT DO ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD BELIEVE IN, THEN?


A:* Their beliefs are blind; the very word belief means blind. If you know, you know; you do not believe. You don't believe in the sun, in the moon. You don't believe in the roses, in the trees. You believe in God. You believe in heaven. You believe in hell. Those are all fictions.
Q:* ARE YOU A GOD?


A:* No.
Q:* ... OR A MAN? YOU ARE A MAN?


A:* I am just an ordinary man.
Q:* BUT YOU ARE ENLIGHTENED.


A:* That is not much of a difference. It is just a difference between closed eyes and open eyes.
Q:* YOU BELIEVE IN POLYGAMY, BUT YOU ARE AFRAID OF OVER-POPULATION. YOU BELIEVE IN FREE SEX, AND YOU ARE AFRAID OF AIDS. HOW CAN YOU PROPAGATE POLYGAMY AND FREE SEX WITHOUT PROTECTING YOUR FOLLOWERS FROM AIDS?


A:* I am protecting them already; there is no question of how. First, I am not in favor of polygamy as against monogamy. I am in favor of dissolving the very institution of marriage. That is the ugliest institution that has happened to man. Marriage dissolved, there is no question of monogamy or polygamy. People are free: if they want to be together, they are together; if they don't want to be together, that is their decision. And children should be taken care of by the commune. Children should not belong to families, but to the commune. And I am taking perfect care of my people. In four years not a single child has been born in this commune.
Q:* WE KNOW BHAGWAN, THAT YOU ARE LIVING A RATHER RICH LIFE. BUT DO YOU THINK THAT LIFE IS WORTH LIVING FOR THE POOR?


A:* Those who are poor are themselves responsible for their poverty. They have believed in idiotic religious ideologies which have made them remain poor.
Q:* AND YOU DON'T WANT TO HELP THEM?


A:* They have to suffer whatsoever they have done. And if they have to punish someone, they should punish the Pope, Mother Teresa, Shankaracharya, Ayatollah Khomeini. Hang all of them: these are the people who are against birth control, against the pill, against abortion. These are the people who are increasing the population. The Pope increases the population and I am responsible for it? And those poor people listen to the Pope, not to me, so what I have to do with them?
Q:* IT DOESN'T MATTER TO YOU THAT YOU ARE INSULTING MAYBE HALF THE WORLD BY SAYING THIS?


A:* I want the world population to be reduced to one fourth. Only then can this world be comfortable, luxurious; can people live, enjoy, rejoice, create. Life can be a blessing. With this population it is a nightmare, and the responsibility goes to your religious leaders. I am not going to suffer for their crime. Neither me nor my people. We are living in comfort, in luxury.      And I believe in comfort and luxury. Man has the intelligence to create more comfort than nature is capable of giving, more luxury than nature has ever intended to offer. And man should use the opportunity. These poor people who are dying in Ethiopia, in India, or anywhere, have listened to the wrong people. Now they should take revenge. They should burn the Vatican; they should take over all the churches. I am not responsible for their poverty. For thirty years I have been teaching birth control methods, abortion. And the poor people whom I have been teaching these things have been throwing stones at me, have been throwing shoes at me, have made attempts on my life. Strange reward -- I am trying to show them how to prevent becoming more and more poor, and they want to kill me.      I am simply finished with all that nonsense. They should go to their Pope, to their Khomeini, to Shankaracharya and settle their things. i am concerned only with my red people and with nobody else.
Q:* DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO BE A LITTLE BIT OUT OF YOUR MIND TO BECOME A SANNYASINS? YOU ONCE SAID THAT.


A:* Certainly. There are two ways of being out of the mind. One is falling below it; then you go into an insane asylum. The other is going above it; then you become enlightened. But both are out of mind. Hence there is a certain similarity between the madman and the Buddha. A certain similarity.
Q:* AREN'T YOU FREEZING?


A:* No.
Q:* IT IS COLD IN HERE.


A:* I love freezing.
Q:* BUT YOU HAVE BEAUTIFUL CLOTHES ON.


A:* They are not thicker than yours.
Q:* BHAGWAN, RECENTLY THE POPE OF ROME PAID A VISIT TO THE NETHERLANDS. DON'T YOU THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO COME THERE TO SEE HOW YOUR FIVE THOUSAND DUTCH FRIENDS ARE DOING?


A:* No. I don't have any need to go anywhere.
Q:* YOU LET THEM COME TO YOU.


A:* They come here. Always the thirsty have to come to the well.
Q:* BUT YOU ONCE CALLED HOLLAND YOUR MOST ORANGE COUNTRY, SO I WONDER WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN OREGON?


A:* In Oregon I am doing something else. In Holland, even without me, the country is going to turn red; but in America my presence is needed.
Q:* BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE BEEN MAKING ATTACKS ON RONALD REAGAN SEVERAL TIMES. I NEVER HEARD YOU ABOUT THE RUSSIAN LEADERS.


A:* I simply don't know anything about the Russian leaders -- except that I am against communism.
Q:* BUT YOU DO KNOW ABOUT AFGHANISTAN AND THE RUSSIANS BEING THERE.


A:* Yes, I have heard about it. But I don't read any books, any newspapers. I have dropped all rubbish. For five years I am just without any contact with the outside world.
Q:* HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW THEN?


A:* Just my secretary.
Q:* SHE TELLS YOU?


A:* If she feels something has to be informed to me, she informs.
Q:* AND SHE DIDN'T INFORM YOU ABOUT THE RUSSIAN LEADERS DOING ALMOST THE SAME BUT THEM IN ANOTHER ANGLE AS THE WESTERN LEADERS?


A:* She has never informed me about the Russian leaders. One thing I know is that they are not hypocrites; they are openly dictatorial. They believe in the dictatorship of the proletariat so whatsoever they do, they do it without hiding themselves behind beautiful words. America talks about democracy, but that is only talk.
Q:* WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN YOU LEAVE THIS PLANET, BHAGWAN? WILL THERE BE ANOTHER BHAGWAN?


A:* I don't know, and neither do I care. When I was not here the world was not missing me.
Q:* BUT NOW THAT YOU ARE HERE, YOUR SANNYASINS WILL MISS YOU WHEN YOU ARE GONE.


A:* Only my sannyasins will miss me.
Q:* SO WILL THERE BE ANOTHER MASTER?


A:* No. Nobody can replace me; nobody can be my successor. I am making it absolutely clear that we are not to create another Christianity, another popedom, another Vatican. No.      My sannyasins are related to me: Drink as much as you can from my well, and when my life disappears you are free to live the way you want. There is nobody going to dominate you, order you, discipline you. I am against all discipline, against all commandments. My whole emphasis is on the respect of the individual and his freedom. Even if he wants to go to hell, nobody should interfere. So when I am gone, you see only from one side: when I die, you all have died to me.
Q:* WE HEARD THIS STORY OF THE REVEREND JIM JONES WHO ORDERED HIS FOLLOWERS TO COMMIT SUICIDE. YOU ONCE SAID THAT WHEN YOU WILL GO, MANY WILL FOLLOW. DO YOU MEAN THIS AS A MASS SUICIDE?


A:* I am not a Christian. I am not a Reverend Jim Jones.
Q:* YOU DON'T WANT YOUR DISCIPLES TO FOLLOW YOU WHEN YOU ARE DEAD?


A:* No, never. I want them to live and live abundantly. And when I am gone, I want them to celebrate my death because we celebrate everything: defeat or victory, life or death. Celebrate, dance, enjoy.
Q:* IS THERE A LIFE AFTER LIFE? AFTER DEATH? A LIFE AFTER DEATH?


A:* Yes, there is. But unless you experience it, my answer will be only a belief to you. I know it, but I don't want anybody to believe in my knowledge. I can help my people to come to the point from where they also can know. And that is one of my basic tenets: unless you know, don't believe: doubt to the very end till you come to know. And when you know, there is no need to believe. I don't believe in life after death -- I know.
Q:* DO YOU MIND WHEN THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT DO BELIEVE?


A:* I mind because their belief will prevent them from knowing. They have moved in a wrong direction.
Q:* YOU DON'T WANT TO TAKE AWAY HOPE FROM THE PEOPLE, DO YOU?


A:* I want to take away all hope from people. Every hope. Because hope is the opium that all the religions have been supplying to the people.
Q:* WHAT IS IT, THEN, THAT PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE WHEN THEY MAY NOT HAVE HOPE?


A:* This moment is enough. Hope is for those who are unable to live this moment, those who are suffering and are in misery. They need hope; they only think of tomorrow. My people live today. And tomorrow never comes, it always comes as today. They know the secret of how to live today, so they will be knowing the secret anywhere, anytime.


Ethiopia needs hope. India needs hope. Poor countries need hope. Retarded people need hope. Miserable couples need hope that in heaven everything will be perfectly good: your wife will not be nagging you there. Your children will not become hippies there. They will not start taking drugs and dropping out of the university there. You need hope. I am giving to my people the reality; hope is only a fantasy. The sick man needs hope for health. But why should the healthy man need hope for health? He is already healthy.
Q:* IS THE MESSAGE YOU ARE BRINGING ONLY FOR SANNYASINS, ONLY FOR 500,000 OF YOUR DISCIPLES? OR DO YOU WANT TO BRING THIS MESSAGE TO MORE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD?


A:* I don't want anything. My people are there. I have not searched for them, they have come to me. Those who are in need, they should seek me. If they are not in need -- get lost -- it is none of my concern.
Q:* HOW DO YOU LIKE MY TIE? THIS WAS THE ONLY RED THING THAT I COULD FIND?


A:* That is the only color I hate. I never use red.
Q:* YOU MUST LOVE SHEELA.


A:* Sheela I love, but not the red color.
Q:* SHE IS RED AND ALL YOUR DISCIPLES ARE RED.


A:* That is why I have given red colors to them -- because that is the only color I will never use.
Q:* SO NONE OF YOUR CARS IS RED, EITHER?


A:* There are a few cars which are red, but I am sitting inside and I don't see them.
Q:* YOU ARE A VERY WISE MAN.


A:* Of course. The wisest who has walked on this earth.
Q:* IS THIS CLIMATE FINE FOR YOU, BHAGWAN? MUCH BETTER THAN IN INDIA?


A:* Much better in every way. The water is clean, pure. In India it is difficult to find water which is not polluted. Just the other day I was informed that in India half the crops are eaten by rats and other animals. And the people, fifty percent of India's people, are almost starving. Whatsoever they eat, half of it is eaten by bugs in their stomach. So almost three fourths of their production goes to the animals or to the bugs. All rivers are polluted. Here, we have the purest water possible, the cleanest air possible. And we have enough land, space, 126 square miles. It is three times larger than New York City.
Q:* ARE YOU CREATING A WONDER HERE IN THE DESERT, BHAGWAN?


A:* Certainly. An oasis I am creating. And we have already succeeded much. When we came four years ago, there was only one house -- that was all. Now we have houses for five thousand people, fully equipped with everything modern. All the houses are centrally air-conditioned. The air is dry; that is what has helped me most. Because I suffer from asthma, humidity is a trouble for me. And I suffer from all kinds of allergies which are not curable. No allergy is curable; you have just to protect yourself against it. So here we have managed everything. My people have done everything so that for four years I had not suffered from any allergy. My back was bad in India, and in India they could not manage to do anything. Experts from England were called, the best expert. He also could not figure it out. But strangely -- I have used all kinds of cars available in the whole world -- just one car Silver Spur by Rolls Royce, fits to my back.
Q:* IS THIS A COMMERCIAL, BHAGWAN?


A:* I am absolutely a business man.
Q:* BUT YOU HAVE ALREADY NINETY. WHY WOULD YOU HAVE MORE?


A:* Three hundred sixty-five soon.
Q:* EVERY DAY ANOTHER ONE?


A:* Yes.
Q:* AND YOU DON'T WANT TO GIVE THEM AWAY TO THE POOR PEOPLE, I UNDERSTOOD.


A:* No. Never.
Q:* I KNOW, BUT CAN YOU GIVE THE POOR PEOPLE THEN MAYBE A BIT OF UNDERSTANDING, A BIT OF LOVE?


A:* I have given them for thirty years and in return they have given me poison, they have thrown knives at me. I am finished with all that nonsense. These Rolls Royces will go to my sannyasins, not to anybody else.
Q:* WHAT YOU ARE ADVOCATING IS LOVE. WHY DON'T YOU GIVE LOVE TO PEOPLE THAT NEED IT?


A:* My people are enough. I have one million sannyasins. What do you want of me? I am loving one million people. Do you want to kill me?
Q:* YOU WOULDN'T MIND....


A:* Is it not enough? One million people? I am loving and loving as much as nobody else can love.
Q:* ARE YOU A BETTER SHOWMAN THAN RONALD REAGAN IS?


A:* I am certainly better in everything. I believe in the best. And if I start loving all those people, then what Ayatollah Khomeini is going to do? Then Pope the Pollack will be out of employment. And what Mother Teresa the Terrible is going to do? I take care of these people also. I leave business for them also. I don't want them to die without business. I have my business going fast like a wildfire; their businesses are shrinking, so I leave the whole world to them: serve the poor because your religion teaches that through service to the poor you will reach to paradise. I don't believe in any paradise. I say: Live richly herenow. This is paradise.
Q:* YOU ARE THE GURU OF THE RICH, YOU SAY, AND THAT MEANS THAT YOU WILL NEVER HAVE VERY MANY DISCIPLES OR FOLLOWERS, BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLD IS POOR.


A:* I don't want them. I have more than enough.
Q:* YOU DON'T WANT TO CONVERT ME, FOR EXAMPLE?


A:* No.
Q:* WHY NOT?


A:* I don't believe in conversion. To me conversion is interfering in somebody's freedom. You can become a sannyasin; I will not convert you. You will have to ask. You will have to beg on your knees to be accepted. And then too perhaps I may not accept.
Q:* MAYBE I WON'T, BHAGWAN, HEARING ABOUT YOUR IDEAS. DO YOU RESPECT THAT?


A:* That's great. I respect everybody and I respect everybody's decision, individuality. Even if he is wrong, it is his right to be wrong. But I will never try to convert anybody. In my whole life I have never tried to convert anybody. The people who have come to me have come on their own; if they stay with me, they stay on their own. If they want to go, they receive a good farewell. They can go. It is all freedom: no conversion, no enforcement, no conditioning. So I will not convert you, but if you want to become a sannyasin....
Q:* YOU WON'T LIKE MY COLOR IN RED...


A:* I will put you all in red.
Q:* YOU WERE TALKING YESTERDAY ABOUT HOW SOMEBODY CAN LOVE JESUS CHRIST. I THINK HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF CATHOLICS CAN. AND WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?


A:* How many contemporaries of Jesus loved him?
Q:* TWELVE, AT LEAST.


A:* Twelve. And how many were present when he was crucified? One, at least, and the eleven had escaped -- and these are great apostles of Jesus. And the one who has remained has refused that he knows Jesus.
You take few grapes.
Q:* I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO BE WITH THE LITTLE THINGS.


A:* You just take a few grapes.
Q:* INSTEAD OF SMOKING, BHAGWAN.


A:* Yes, they are very helpful.
Q:* I MUST BE A LITTLE BIT IN LOVE WITH YOU, BECAUSE I DIDN'T SMOKE ALL DAY. I DIDN'T DRINK. I HAD ALL MY CLOTHES DRY-CLEANED. AND I HAVE COLD FEET. JUST TO SEE YOU AND TO HEAR YOU SAYING WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.


A:* I know you must be in love with me. And you can see in my eyes and see my love for you. That's why I am saying take a few grapes.
Q:* SO YOU DON'T WANT TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD, BHAGWAN?


A:* No. I am going to take over the whole universe.
Q:* YOU THINK THAT THERE IS LIFE ON OTHER PLANETS?


A:* At least fifty thousand planets have life.
Q:* AND DOES THAT COME ONCE TOGETHER? ARE WE VISITING THEM? ARE THEY VISITING US?


A:* Yes. Life moves from one planet to another planet -- not bodies, but spirits.
Q:* DO YOU BELIEVE IN UFO'S? UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS, YOU KNOW.


A:* No. That's all nonsense.
Q:* PEOPLE FROM OTHER PLANETS VISITING US?


A:* No.
Q:* INVADING MAYBE? IT COULD BE A TEACHER OF THEIRS, A MASTER OF THE PLANETS.


A:* Nobody is interested in invading this madhouse.
Q:* WHAT IS YOUR SEX APPEAL, BHAGWAN? YOU HAVE SO MANY GORGEOUS WOMEN AROUND YOU AND IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD.


A:* I love women, and women love me.
Q:* ARE YOU A CELIBATE?


A:* No. Why should I be? This is a strange question. Nobody asks: Do you breath? Do you eat?
Q:* HOW DO YOU SPEND YOUR DAY SINCE YOU DON'T READ?


A:* With so many gorgeous women, you are asking me: How do you spend your day? Read the book Arabian Nights and you will be reading my autobiography.
Q:* WHY DO YOU SPEAK UP NOW AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN SILENT FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS? IS THIS BECAUSE THE FRUIT ON THE TREE IS RIPE?


A:* Yes, that is one of the reasons. But even deeper than that, I had gone into silence to let a few people drop out from sannyas. These were the people who were enchanted with my words, my philosophy, my approach towards the fundamental problems of life. I have been insisting that what I say is not important: the important cannot be said; the truth is inexpressible. You can know it in silence, but you cannot put it into words. So I wanted to get rid of those people who cannot understand my silence. The only way was to be silent. In three years I sorted out all the wrong kinds of people. In three years those who remained as happy with me as before -- these were my people. After sorting out the wrong kind, now is the time for me to say what I really wanted to say. The right opportunity was not there; now I have enough people who are ready to listen to me without any prejudice. And I have not to fulfill any of their expectations -- they don't have any expectations about me. So just to sort out the wrong people was one of the most fundamental reasons.      Secondly, it is true -- in these three years of silence, the people who were living with me have come to a state of maturity, centering, grounding -- the fruit is ripe. The flowers have blossomed and now I would like to spread the fragrance unaddressed. Whoever wants it can have it; the fruits are here, just be the side on the table.
Q:* IT IS THERE, RIGHT, BUT NOT FOR A NEW GENERATION, BHAGWAN, BECAUSE YOU ADVOCATE COMPLETE BIRTH CONTROL.


A:* I don't care. Nobody cared about me. All of you are just accidental products. Who cared for you? Do you think your father and mother were thinking about you?
Q:* YES.


A:* NO. You are just accidental.
Q:* THEY WANTED ME.


A:* No. Because they never knew who you are. They may have wanted a child, but not you.
Q:* I HAVE THEIR CHARACTER, A COMBINATION OF THE TWO.


A:* There were millions of possibilities -- not only you. When your father was making love to your mother, he released millions of germs and one of them -- that is you -- reached to your mother's cell. All your millions of brothers could not reach and died. And their life is only two hours. If they don't reach the mother's egg within two hours, they will die. And the problem is that only one can reach, and the moment one reaches, the egg closes. It is rare that two male cells reach together so there are twins. Once a cell has reached, all others have to die. In every love affair millions of beings are being killed. And nobody knows who is going to win the race. I don't think your mother or father knew anything about who was going to win the race. It was fortunate that you won it, but nobody cares.
Q:* THANK YOU.


A:* Come back again and again. I will be waiting here.
Q:* THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I HOPE YOU ARE NOT ANGRY WITH ME THAT THIS INTERVIEW MIGHT NOT BE THE KIND YOU ARE ACCUSTOMED TO.


A:* No. I am never angry about anything. I am always ready to adjust to anything, any situation. There is no problem in it.
Q:* BHAGWAN, IF YOU WOULD BE SO KIND TO TALK VIA ME TO YOUR DISCIPLES, THEN THE CAMERAMAN CAN MAKE SOME CUTAWAYS IN THE MEANTIME.


A:* Okay. I would like to say to you that you are a potential sannyasin -- be careful.
Q:* YOU HAVE SO MUCH LOVE FOR ME?


A:* I can see it. I can feel it. I will be following you and I will coming in your dreams. I am a little bit dangerous.
Q:* I AM NOT GOING TO WORK SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, BHAGWAN.


A:* No, that I can manage. If you want to come here and you want not to work seven days, you can work six days.
Q:* THEN FIRST YOU MUST HAVE A GOLF COURSE HERE, BECAUSE I LOVE PLAYING GOLF.


A:* We are going to have it. Whatsoever you love, we will manage to have it. Just come.
Q:* I CAN BE YOUR GREEN KEEPER.


A:* Perhaps our golf course is waiting for you to come here. I want my sannyasins to have everything that the world can provide.
Q:* THAT IS BEAUTIFUL.


A:* And they are having everything they need. Nobody has asked about a golf course yet.
Q:* BUT THEY ALSO ARE THINKING OF PLAYING TENNIS, BHAGWAN.


A:* Yes. They have tennis grounds ready. They have grounds ready for football. And soon we will be having a golf course. We can have the best golf course in the world.
Q:* I SAW THAT YOUR GRASS IS GREENER THAN ANYWHERE ELSE.


A:* It is going to be. It is my grass -- real authentic grass -- which every government is afraid. Okay? Good.
			

> [!info]
> Copyright 1964-1990 Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh)
>