---
section: Library
booktitle: "The Last Testament, Vol 2"
booktype: "Discourses"
bookcode: "LAST2"
dategiven: "19 September 1985 pm"
place: " in Sanai Grove"
chapternum: "Chapter #28"
chaptertitle: "None"
acode: "8509195"
shorttitle: "LAST228"
audio: "Yes"
video: "Yes"
esttime: "103mins"
displaytitle: "The Last Testament, Vol 2: Chapter #28"
---

```style
.sutra {
  font-style: italic;
  white-space: pre-wrap !important;
}
```
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> [!info]
> Note
>
[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]
INTERVIEW WITH QUICK MAGAZINE, WEST GERMANY
Q:* SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT I PLAN ASK YOU THIS EVENING MAY SEEM VERY HOSTILE TO YOU.


A:* No.
Q:* AND I DON'T WANT YOU OR THE COMMUNE TO FEEL THAT I'M BEING HOSTILE AT ALL.


A:* No. Nobody can be hostile to me. Whatever you do, I never feel any hostility from any human being towards me. It is your work -- to be a journalist is a tough job.
So you be as harsh as you can. But remember that I am a tough guy too!
Q:* I HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS TO ASK YOU AND SO I'M HOPING THAT YOU CAN GIVE SOMETIMES RATHER SHORT ANSWERS, BUT IF YOU FEEL LIKE GIVING LONGER ANSWERS, THAT'S ALL RIGHT TO. YOU KNOW?


A:* Everything is okay -- you just start.
Q:* THE RAJNEESH PEOPLE HAVE BEEN VERY HOSTILE TO THE PEOPLE OF OREGON. THEY CAME IN AND TOOK OVER THE TOWN OF ANTELOPE. SHEELA HAS CALLED ANYONE WHO OPPOSED THE COMMUNE A FASCIST AND A BIGOT. HOW CAN YOU NOW TELL US AND MAKE US BELIEVE THAT YOU DID NOT KNOW WHAT SHEELA WAS DOING AND SAYING? YOU DID READ THE PAPERS, YOU WATCH TELEVISION, YOU LISTEN TO THE RADIO. THE OUTSIDE MEDIA HAS BEEN REPORTING ON THIS FOR FOUR YEARS AND NOW YOU SAY TO US THAT YOU JUST FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS.


A:* Just keep your answers short.


First, I do not listen to radio, I do not see television. For five years I have not read any book, any magazine, any newspaper. So I do not know anything about the world and particularly the three and half years when I was silent -- I was in isolation. Sheela was my only connection with the world, so whatsoever she said, that's all that I knew.
Q:* THAT'S ALL YOU KNEW?


A:* So whatsoever she wanted me to know, she said; whatever she never wanted me to know, she never said. And I was not a suspicious type person. I trust people, I respect people. When somebody says something, I believe it. That's why she could manage to do many criminal acts in those three and half years. And I was not aware of them at all.


Since I started speaking again, she was in a difficulty, because whatsoever she was doing goes absolutely against my teaching. My teaching is to doubt everything.
Q:* ARE YOU SAYING DOUBT?


A:* Yes. Unless you come to realize something indubitable; my teaching is not a belief system, it is not Christianity, it is not Mohammedanism, it is not Hinduism. It is not a religion which forces everybody to believe in a God you don't know, to believe in heaven in hell you don't know. My insistence is either you know or you don't know -- there is no third position. And she has been in this gap, insisting people to believe in her, not to doubt -- to doubt is negativity, surrender to her totally -- and she was presenting people that this is my message.


So when I started speaking she started feeling uncomfortable, naturally. When I started speaking I became available to my people, approachable easily. That brought her fall down. She knew that sooner or later everything that she has done or forced people to do, I will come to know.
Q:* WE'LL BE COMING TO THAT IN A MOMENT, OKAY?


A:* No. It is not yet okay. Your question is not answered yet.


Before her whole criminality and the gang that was supporting her is exposed, she simply escaped from the country with the whole gang. And now I am coming every day, because the people who were afraid of her now are no more afraid of anybody. Just as I was leaving my house, I was informed that one of our scientists was asked by Sheela to prepare some instrument that people can be killed just by rays, so that will not be detectable. He refused, but he was not aware whether he is doing right or wrong, whether he is trusting me or not, because Sheela was always keeping the mask that she is representing me.


As I was entering in the car I was informed by the man who takes care of the cows, particularly the cow which is maintained for me, that the cow was given poisonous things slowly, so that the milk can become poisoned. So it was not only that they wanted to kill other people; they wanted me at least if not to be killed, at least to be so sick, so crippled, that I will not come in the public again.
Q:* WHY WERE YOU IN SILENCE FOR SO MANY YEARS AND WHY AND WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO BREAK YOUR SILENCE?


A:* Silence is the only prayer that is true. Any other prayer is just make-believe. You are praying to a God you do not know.
Q:* I KNOW THE GOD I PRAY TO. ARE YOU ASKING ME WHETHER I KNOW WHO I PRAY TO OR WERE YOU JUST ASKING THAT...?


A:* I mean everybody who prays, prays in ignorance. Prayer means out of ignorance. Silence is just the polar opposite of prayer. It is authentic prayer. You are simply silent -- you are not saying anything to existence, you are not asking anything from existence. You are just merging yourself, drowning yourself -- with the air, with the sun, with the moon, with the earth, with the sky. You are in a way disappearing your ego, your separate existence from the whole.


I had wanted that period for many years. Thirty years I have been speaking continuously, five lectures per day. Thousands of people every day meeting hundreds of people, roaming all over India for thirty years -- I was tired, sick, and I wanted to be in complete silence, in total relaxation, no disturbance, no phone around me, no newspaper, no unnecessary thing -- that was the reason for me to go in silence.


I had to come out of silence because I started becoming aware by my people, because three people were able to approach me -- my physician, my dentist and my caretaker -- and Sheela and her gang has tried to poison all the three people and to kill them.


So from these three people I became aware what is going on that, "Your commune has become almost a concentration camp. Everybody who is intelligent is being thrown out in some way or other, pressurized, forced, humiliated. The vice chancellor of our university left, the chancellor of our university left, few very good therapists left, few people who have been with me for almost a decade, utterly in love, had to leave and with tears in their eyes, because Sheela did not want anybody who can rebel against her.


The moment I became aware of the situation, I declared that I am going to speak from tomorrow.
Q:* COULD I ASK YOU HOW YOU DID BECOME AWARE? WHO DID APPROACH YOU FIRST SO THAT WHEN DID YOU KNOW THAT, YOU BEGAN TO SUSPECT THAT SHEELA AND HER GANG WERE UP TO NO GOOD. WAS IT IN MAY, WAS IT IN JUNE?


A:* It is very difficult for me, because I never take note of days and dates, but it must be when I started speaking.
Q:* I BELIEVE THAT WAS IN JUNE?


A:* It must be one and half month before I started speaking.

HASYA: October, '84.
Q:* OCTOBER OF EIGHTY-FOUR? IS WHEN BHAGWAN STARTED SPEAKING?


H:* No, Bhagwan started speaking to a small group of people in October, '84. He was not yet speaking in public.
Q:* IN PUBLIC I THINK IT WAS IN JUNE '85.


A:* Yes. First I started speaking to the people who have been very intimate to me, to understand the whole situation, and then I started speaking into public, and slowly everything surfaced, people became unafraid, and every crime -- perhaps there are more crimes that will come up soon....
Q:* WELL, ARE YOU SAYING THAT, THAT YOU'VE BEEN SUSPICIOUS OF SHEELA SINCE LAST OCTOBER -- THAT YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING HER?


A:* About dates you forgive me. I have not a good memory at all. I don't know what day today is. I don't know. And I never care what day it is, what year it is, and what date it is -- I am not a businessman and I have no business to know these things. To me every moment is the same.
Q:* HARRY TRUMAN WHO WAS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ONCE SAID THAT, "THE BUCK STOPS HERE," IN OTHER WORDS, WHOEVER IS THE HEAD OF AN ORGANIZATION.... SO WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP SHEELA SOONER? I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND.


A:* I'm not the head -- that's where you don't understand me. I am not the head of any organization. I don't hold any post, I have never been on any post. My power is my love but that is not politics and that does not make me Harry Truman! And that guy you call Harry Truman was Harry Un-Truman. That man was responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And still you have not changed his name. He was the most untrue man who has ever lived on the earth. Harry Un-truman from now!
Q:* I THINK THE BOMB WAS DEVELOPED UNDER FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT... DID SHEELA RESIGN, WAS SHE ASKED TO RESIGN RATHER THAN BE FIRED? AND TO WHOM WAS THE LETTER ADDRESSED AND CAN THE LETTER BE MADE AVAILABLE TO THE MEDIA?


A:* The trouble is she simply informed that she is leaving the country.
Q:* WHOM DID SHE INFORM?


A:* She informed the financial secretary of the communion....
Q:* AND WHOM MIGHT THAT BE?


A:* Savita. She informed to Savita that she is leaving the country and she will leave her resignation to her and my authority letter for being my secretary, my power of attorney, but what actually happened, Savita also escaped with the group, so I know only the information. I never got any resignation in my hand.
Q:* SO IS THERE AT THE COMMUNE HERE, A LETTER SIGNED BY SHEELA OR IS THERE NOT A LETTER SIGNED BY SHEELA?


A:* That will have to be inquired.
Q:* BECAUSE IF NOT, IT IS VERY POSSIBLE THAT SHEELA AND HER GANG WHO ARE NOW IN ZURICH COULD AND MAY HAVE ALREADY EMPTIED OUT YOUR BANK ACCOUNTS IN ZURICH.


A:* They have done that. They have done that already.


But I am not an organization man, so you will have to ask the people -- Sheela's secretary perhaps has the letter of resignation and everything and they can be made available to you. But in Zurich Sheela has become incredibly criminal.


She married a Swiss sannyasin. She was already married to an American sannyasin here -- this is bigamy. And she married this Swiss sannyasin because he had the power to take the money out; the money belonged to the Swiss Zurich commune, so he had taken out the money....
Q:* HM MM. DO WE KNOW HOW MUCH WAS TAKEN OUT?


A:* No, because I don't have any connection with these things. I have never gone here to the office, I never look at their files, I never inquire -- that is not my business and not my interest.
Q:* SO YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING THIS NOW?


A:* No.
Q:* WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IF YOU FIND OUT THAT HASYA SUDDENLY IS FOLLOWING IN SHEELA'S FOOTSTEPS?


A:* She will not fall in Sheela's steps. She is far more intelligent, far more loving, and far more human.
Q:* YOU HAVE ALSO SAID THE OTHER NIGHT AT A PRESS CONFERENCE WHEN YOU ANNOUNCED THE SHEELA TRAUMA, THAT 'THIS IS GIVING ME GREAT EXCITEMENT AND I ENJOY IT.' IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU HAVE STAGED SHEELA'S DEPARTURE FOR EXCITEMENT?


A:* Yes.
Q:* ARE YOU SERIOUS? BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO BE QUOTED AROUND THE WORLD.


A:* You quote it exactly as I am saying. It is a great excitement and I am really being serious!
Q:* WELL, WHEN YOU'RE BEING SERIOUS COULD YOU HAVE A STRAIGHT FACE?! MOST PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE ARE SKEPTICAL ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE REALLY SAYING -- AFTER ALL THESE ARE MERE ALLEGATIONS. THERE HAS BEEN NO PROOF OTHER THAN THE FINDING OF ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT AND THESE BOOKS ON HOW TO KILL, WHICH IN AND OF ITSELF IS NOT A CRIME. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THE SKEPTICS ON THIS PARTICULAR QUESTION?


A:* We will provide them more facts, our people will provide them more witnesses.... For example, one of the offices of Wasco county was burned by Sheela's gang. We have the witnesses. Sheela wanted one of our pilot to take the bombs in one of our planes and crash the plane against the Wasco county office, and before the plane crashed he should jump out in a parachute. He refused. Because he refused, as a punishment he was sent to a faraway, small commune in Germany, so he does not say it to anybody.


As he heard that Sheela has left, he immediately phoned and I called him. Just I have seen him here.


So we are collecting... it will take few days because for Sheela it took three-and-half years, and she has taken many documents, many things with her. But within two weeks we will be able to produce hundreds of witnesses for everything that she has done. For example, just when Hasya moved into Sheela's room which belongs to the president of the Foundation, she found there a way going downstairs. She was... out of curiosity went in. And she found that underneath there are rooms. For what purpose, the whole commune, nobody knows. And there is a tunnel going far, so if some police comes to arrest her or anything happens, they can escape through the door out of the tunnel which leads far away from the house. Now these are proofs of the* criminal mind who is preparing for something.
Q:* WELL, THESE HOUSES WERE BUILT BY PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNE, I MEAN THEY WERE NOT BUILT BY THE OUTSIDE?


A:* No, they were not built by outside people. That's why we can manage to have witnesses. Otherwise it would be difficult to find witnesses.
Q:* HAVE PEOPLE COME FORWARD... NOT NECESSARILY TO YOU?


A:* Not yet, but we will find who has been, because we have built houses for five thousand people in the whole commune, so who was working here we will have to find out. She has bugged houses....
Q:* FOR WHAT PURPOSE DO YOU THINK SHE BUGGED YOUR HOUSE? WHAT WOULD SHE HAVE HOPED TO HAVE HEARD, IF YOU WERE IN SILENCE?


A:* She must have been afraid if any information against her is given to me. If my physician, who comes to check me, gives me some information, if my caretaker, who comes three, four times to give me tea or food, if she talks anything against her, gives any information. The purpose is clear.
Q:* WAS THE DOCTOR OR THE DENTIST OR VIVEK GIVING YOU ANY INFORMATION?


A:* In fact Sheela had managed almost my house outside the city. And she has managed that the commune and my house are almost separate entities. My doctor... she gave good excuses, good explanations: that my doctor has not to go to the hospital because he checks me, looks after me, he can bring any infection from the hospital, so he need not go there. He should remain in the house, do some editing work. My dentist should not go out, he should do some edition, editor's work. And my caretaker certainly has no time to go out from 6:00 early in the morning late 11:00 when I go to sleep, she is continuously running for everything for me.


So they had managed that these people don't come in contact with commune, and the people who were committing crimes, they have specifically told them -- now they are coming out -- that never say anything to Bhagwan's place, whoever lives there, don't say anything to those people. They have completely isolated my house in the excuse that I need silence, isolation, so nobody should go there. And nobody should come out from there. She did it perfectly well. She had good excuses.


So as these people slowly became aware from friends or somebody phoned, their phones were bugged, taped. Their rooms were bugged. These are now available. FBI people are coming tomorrow to check all the houses where bugging had happened, in what ways they were taping through the telephones.
Q:* NO, BUT WHERE ARE THE ACTUAL TAPES OF THE BUGGING? I MEAN IS THAT GOING TO BE TURNED OVER TO THE FBI?


A:* Yes, few are here, which we can give to FBI or to any court, whoever wants them and wherever they are needed. Most of them, perhaps the important ones that she was afraid, she has taken with herself.
Q:* WELL, SHE MUST HAVE LEFT WITH A TRUNK THEN?


A:* Twenty... so in twenty people's luggage you can take many things, many tapes, many things, and in a private plane, our own plane, they had gone to Portland... to Seattle.
Q:* WHEN WAS THIS? SATURDAY NIGHT?


(Answer from a sannyasin is inaudible)
Q: THE FOURTEENTH? THAT'S SHEELA AND A GROUP OF....


A:* Of almost twenty people.
Q:* LEFT ON A RAJNEESH PLANE?


A:* Yes.
Q:* IF THEY RESIGNED, THEY HAD NO RIGHT TO TAKE THAT PLANE?


A:* That's the trouble because I don't look after any small thing. I don't have any power either.
Q:* WELL, WHO FLEW THEM, AND UNDER WHAT AUTHORITY?


A:* They had resigned, but the people on the airport had no idea that they have resigned. Only Sheela's secretary knew about it, and....
Q:* AND SHE HAS NOW LEFT?


A:* No.
Q:* SHE IS STILL HERE?


A:* She was very courageous, and she proved a real jewel, because she has all the clues that has happened in three-and-half years. Sheela was forcing her to go with her, threatening her, but she simply refused. She said, "I am here for Bhagwan. I am not here for you."
Q:* IN WHAT WAY DID SHEELA THREATEN SHEELA'S... THE SECRETARY?


A:* The secretary knew that she has even killed people.
Q:* THAT WHO HAD KILLED PEOPLE? SHEELA?


A:* She had an assistant in all these killings and efforts to kill -- Puja, who is a trained nurse and well-qualified, almost equally to a doctor's qualification. She can prescribe medicines, she has license. She was the criminal to help in practical things. Idea was Sheela's; Puja will practice it. They even tried to kill the private secretary -- they poisoned her tea.
Q:* THE PRIVATE SECRETARY TO SHEELA, YOU MEAN?


A:* Yes.
Q:* BUT DID YOU SAY BEFORE THAT SHEELA DID KILL SOMEONE?


A:* Yes. Because when there was a Share-a-Home program, and three thousand people from the streets Sheela has brought here, she was giving them doses of certain poison -- what is the name of the name of the poison?

(Answer from a sannyasin is inaudible)
Q:* IT BEGINS WITH AN H, I THINK.


A:* Haldol, hmm?
Q:* YES.


A:* That poison they were giving to all people in small doses to keep them quiet, under control, silent, and to make them almost zombies, so whatsoever you say they will do. One man just accidentally they overdosed, and that man died. And they simply threw his body out of the area of Rancho Rajneesh. The body was found by the police, but there was no proof what has happened to the man. Right now after almost one year we have come to know from people that it was an act of Sheela and her group. So they tried the private secretary of Sheela, but she is really a strong and brave... she remained here and she is going to be our immense help in finding out people who have done it, who are still in the commune and can be witnesses, who has made that tunnel. For everything she will be of immense help, because everything went through her, she was the secretary. So writing everything she knew what was happening.
Q:* IF YOU WANNA KEEP A SECRET, NEVER TELL YOUR SECRETARY, REMEMBER THAT.


A:* That's good, but I don't want to keep anything secret.
Q:* THERE IS A REPORT CIRCULATING IN EUROPE TONIGHT THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN A LETTER TO THE RAJIV GANDHI ASKING IF YOU CAN RETURN TO INDIA. AND IF SO, THIS LETTER IS ALLEGED TO STATE ALSO WHAT CAN BE DONE REGARDING THE TAXES YOU OWE. DID YOU, OR ANYONE HERE AT THE COMMUNE, ON YOUR BEHALF, WRITE SUCH A LETTER TO GANDHI, AND ARE YOU PLANNING TO INDIA?


A:* I have never written any letter, and I have no plan to return to India.


Yes, one of Rajiv Gandhi's friend had come here to see me, and wanted if I have any message for Rajiv Gandhi, because I have been in intimate connection with Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi's mother, Rajiv Gandhi, Sanjay Gandhi -- their whole family. So he asked me if I have any message. I said, "I have many messages, but I will give them only if Rajiv comes here. I am not coming to India."
Q:* THE PEOPLE IN GERMANY ARE PARTICULARLY IRRITATED WITH YOU, REGARDING YOUR HITLER QUOTE IN THE AUGUST ISSUE OF DER SPIEGEL IN WHICH YOU SAID YOU LOVE THIS MAN, AND YOU COMPARED HIM MORALISTICALLY WITH MAHATMA GANDHI. COULD YOU PLEASE PERHAPS EXPAND ON THIS AND PUT IT IN A MORE PROPER PERSPECTIVE?


A:* Yes, there have been some misunderstanding. I was condemning Mahatma Gandhi by comparing him with Adolf Hitler, not praising Adolf Hitler by comparing him with Mahatma Gandhi.


I was saying that Mahatma Gandhi and Adolf Hitler.... Mahatma Gandhi does not know anything about electricity.
Q:* ALL RIGHT, JUST GET SERIOUS FOR ONE SECOND. PEOPLE IN GERMANY ARE REALLY UPSET AT WHY YOU KEEP SAYING, YOU LOVED HITLER. I MEAN HITLER WAS A JERK.


A:* Just.... He was a jerk, there is no doubt about it, but Mahatma Gandhi was also a jerk, and bigger jerk than Adolf Hitler.


You will have to be a little patient to understand because it is a complex problem. I consider Mahatma Gandhi not nonviolent, but his violence is introverted. He tortures himself, he tortures his wife, he tortures his sons. He tortures his followers. But the torture is in the name of religion, purity, celibacy.


Adolf Hitler is an extrovertly violent person. To give them their right names, Adolf Hitler is a sadist who enjoys torturing millions of people; Mahatma Gandhi is a masochist who also enjoys millions of people to torture themselves. But the sadist and the masochist both are sick psychologically, and both need the same treatment. None of them is a sage. And I said that I love Adolf Hitler better than Mahatma Gandhi; at least he is openly without any hypocrisy a violent man, and Gandhi is a hypocrite, and he is still a violent man. That was the reason that I said that I love. The man is a jerk and needs psychiatry, but you have to love jerks too. Even though they happen to be German jerks.
Q:* I'M AMERICAN. I HOPE YOU WEREN'T REFERRING TO ME.


A:* No, I'm not referring to you.
Q:* YOU'VE BEEN QUOTED AS SAYING YOU WOULD FIGHT OUR GOVERNMENT WITH WEAPONS. THIS IS IN REGARD TO YOUR IMMIGRATION PROBLEMS. WHY ARE THERE SO MANY WEAPONS HERE AT THIS COMMUNE?


A:* Just you have to see how much hostility San Francisco has against it.
Q:* OH. WHAT'S SAN FRANCISCO GOT TO DO WITH IT?


A:* Something it has to do. How much Portland hostility has against it? This small commune because it is new, strange, and people don't understand.... We are harmless, in four years we have not harmed anybody. the commune has not done anything wrong, and the group that had done wrong has escaped. Now, if their hostility drops, our security will disappear. In fact, we don't enjoy security. Who wants one hundred people unnecessarily to be involved in security? The commune...
Q:* BUT THAT'S A VERY LARGE FORCE, AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF WEAPONS HERE PER PERSON; IT'S EVEN MORE THAN WHAT WE HAVE IN NEW YORK CITY.


A:* It is not large, because New York City or San Francisco, or any American city is supported by the state, is supported by the federal government. You have the greatest nuclear compilation of weapons, you can destroy the whole world. So what fear you have? What problem you have? We don't have nuclear weapons. Our guns are just toy guns.
Q:* IT TOOK US ABOUT AN HOUR JUST TO GET FROM RAJNEESH TO HERE, THROUGH ONE OF THE MOST TREACHEROUS ROADS. NOW DO YOU THINK ANYBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND, WHO WANTED TO COME HERE TO DO BAD FOR THE COMMUNE, WOULD BE MAKING THEIR WAY.... YOU'VE GOT SECURITY POSTS -- I THINK I COUNTED FIVE COMING IN HERE.


A:* Just think of one thing: why that road is so torturous? The Wasco County has not repaired the road for four years continuously.
Q:* WELL, IT WAS THAT WAY WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE PLACE. YOU GOT THE PLACE "AS IS."


A:* No. No, when we purchased it, it was far better. And when we remained here for two years -- a legal city, the Wasco County has incorporated the commune as a legal city -- they were repairing the road every month, almost twice a month. And the road was perfectly good. When the declared the city illegal, they stopped repairing the road, just to create difficulties for my people. And if they can do that nonsense, and they can show their hostility in this way, we cannot trust them either.
Q:* YOU HAVE A ROTTEN ROAD TO GET IN HERE, SO WHO WOULD WANTA COME IN HERE AND DO HARM TO ANYBODY?


A:* We don't want.
Q:* SO THEREFORE WHY DO YOU NEED ALL THESE WEAPONS?


A:* We don't want, we simply want to be left alone.
Q:* I MEAN, IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE THAT PEOPLE WOULD WANTA TAKE THEIR LIVES IN THEIR HANDS.


A:*... we don't want! We are not interested at all in anybody unnecessarily travelling that hell of a road.... We want to be left alone, we want nothing to be concerned with anybody.
Q:* BUT IN FOUR YEARS THAT YOU'VE BEEN HERE, NO ONE HAS INVADED THIS PROPERTY OR TRIED TO -- THANK GOODNESS -- TO GET AT YOU OR ANY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNE, NOBODY. NOBODY HAS SURROUNDED THIS PLACE WITH WEAPONS. WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE STATE POLICE COME IN, WE HAVEN'T SEEN IRATE CITIZENS FROM THE DALLES OR MADRAS, OR ANY OTHER PLACE COME DOWN HERE, YOU KNOW, WITH GUNS. YOU GOTTA COUPLE OF PEOPLE WHO CALL TO HARASS YOU.


A:* Just wait a minute! There have been people coming here -- Christian missionaries, Christian fanatics -- trying to create nuisance. And they have not come because they know now that their fanaticism will not be enough. We are enough ready to face it. Otherwise, they were coming here and we had no security force. They stopped coming here.


And you say that the military has not come, but you must have known on the television. Governor, the attorney general, and all the chief agencies of the state government had a secret meeting about Rajneeshpuram. We asked that at least the mayor of Rajneeshpuram should be there, so we are not misrepresented. If you are taking any decision, at least one person from us will be there, but they did not allow. They did not allow the press. This is, you call America and freedom of press -- they did not allow a single journalist inside. The governor said, "You wait outside. After the meeting I will give you what has happened."


And after the meeting he took the news conference, and whatever he said is absolute lie. Not a single word of it was discussed within the meeting, and whatever was discussed within the meeting, he did not say to the press. Just one journalist somehow got hold of the confidential file, which the governor was thinking has been burned. And in that file -- he has shown the file on the television. From him we have got a copy of the file, and we have put a lawsuit against the government, attorney general and the governor as a conspiracy against our commune. In that meeting they decided that the military should be kept alert, that any time, within three hours they have to reach Rajneeshpuram. And you are saying to me that military has not reached. It is alert, they can reach any moment.
Q:* BUT THEY HAVEN'T MARCHED ON RAJNEESH.


A:* They cannot, because whatever I have said is true! And they cannot because if they do anything to me, they will be opposed throughout the world.
Q:* SO YOU'RE GONNA KEEP YOUR FORCE AND YOU'RE GONNA KEEP YOUR WEAPONS?


A:* Yes! Unless the hostility disappears, and unless the governor starts being friendly to the commune and withdraws their unconstitutional litigations against us, the security will remain. If they withdraw everything, we will withdraw all security. We are unnecessary burdened with the security; there is no need.
Q:* IN THE MEDIA, WE HAVE REFERRED TO SHEELA AS THAT "PISTOL-PACKING MAMA," AND I DON'T THINK THAT YOU WOULD LIKE THAT SAME THING...


A:* No, we have dropped. Nobody is to be called "mom." We have even changed the name of this house. It used to be called Jesus House... Jesus Grove, now it will not be called Jesus Grove. Now it will be Sanai Grove. Sanai...
Q:* WHAT KIND OF CHANGES ARE YOU PLANNING?


A:* Everything.
Q:* WELL, COULD YOU GIVE A COUPLE OF SPECIFICS?


A:* Everything that we find made the commune fear, we are going to change. Everything that made the power concentrated in one hand, we are going to deconcentrate it. We are going to change every person in power fast enough so nobody takes it for granted as if it is his lifelong thing.
Q:* ARE YOU SAYING THEN THAT HASYA... THAT HER TERM OF OFFICE WILL ONLY BE FOR A CERTAIN SPECIFIED PERIOD OF TIME?


A:* Certainly.
Q:* AND THAT THEN THERE WILL BE ANOTHER CONFIDENTIAL SECRETARY?


A:* That will be the commune to decide. If Hasya proves in this time, totally a different person than Sheela, perhaps she may continue. If we have found the right person, she can continue her whole life. But if we find a slight tendency, then she will be changed.
Q:* AND WHO DETERMINES THAT?


A:* I determine.
Q:* OKAY. WHO SELECTS HASYA?


A:* Hasya is my secretary. As secretary, I select my secretary, but as president, Foundation has its own members, they choose. That is up to them, that I have nothing to do.
Q:* AS PART OF THE CHANGES AT RAJNEESHPURAM, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THE PLACE BECOME A RESORT?


A:* Yes! Certainly.
Q:* WHAT KIND OF A RESORT DO YOU ENVISION...?


A:* Everything, because we have enough land -- one hundred twenty-six square miles, three times than your New York. We can make it such a beautiful resort, with big lakes -- we have made one; one we already have. We can make big lakes, boating. We can make small villas deep in the mountains for people just to rest. We can arrange all kinds of games....
Q:* WHAT KIND OF GAMES?


A:* ANY kind, we can arrange for golf too.
Q:* HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT RECRUITING NON-RAJNEESHEE BUSINESSES TO COME HERE AND OPEN UPSHOP?


A:* No. Just this is a meditative commune, and we don't want anybody who is not meditative -- that will be a disturbance.
Q:* HAVE YOU GOTTEN ANY WORD EXACTLY AS TO WHERE SHEELA MIGHT BE RIGHT NOW? THE LAST WE HEARD SHE WAS IN ZURICH.


A:* The last we had heard, she was in Zurich, then in the near village in Black Forest. Now she and her new husband is in London. And the others... are not known where they are.
Q:* IT IS REPORTED THAT SHE WOULD LIKE TO OPEN A GAMBLING CASINO. WITH YOUR MONEY?


A:* Perhaps, because she must have stolen as much money as she could. In Europe we have big communes, they have donated most of the money for this commune to happen, almost two hundred million dollars. So in Europe we have enough money in the communes, and she was moving around Europe lately in all the communes. From there she can get money. But we will be preventing; we are informing every commune that no money should be given to her.


But she may have already, before she left, she may have already shifted, siphoned money into some directions which we will discover soon. Our expert in finances is coming within two days, who will be able to find every single paise if it has disappeared from anywhere -- either from here or from Europe.
Q:* HOW MUCH MONEY DID SHE TAKE OUT OF ZURICH? I THOUGHT I UNDERSTOOD YOU TO... YOU CITED A FIGURE OF SOME MONEY SHE TOOK OUT OF THE BANK IN ZURICH.


A:* No. That was not big -- her husband has taken -- that was not...
Q:* BUT THAT WAS YOUR MONEY, OR THE MONEY OF THE COMMUNE?


A:* Of the commune.
Q:* OF THE COMMUNE. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF THAT MONEY SHE STOLE IN ZURICH.


A:* It was not much...

HASYA: We're not sure, but I think something like a thousand francs.

A:* Five thousand at the most. It was not much. It was not much.
Q:* SHE DIDN'T GET HER HANDS ON MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THERE?


A:* That is possible, because she has left the commune in fifty-five million dollar debt. And she never said it to me.


Just few days before, I had asked the finance department head, how much debt you have. She said, only two and half million. And now suddenly it is fifty-five million within two months; it seems too much. How it has become fifty-five million?
Q:* WHAT MADE YOU ASK THE FINANCE MINISTER -- OR WHATEVER HIS OR HER TITLE IS -- ABOUT THIS DEBT?


A:* I asked because they had made a housing system, a housing complex in City of Rajneesh for two hundred fifty couples, and they had given me the impression that it is for sannyasins. And it is a beautiful complex: each room with attached bathroom for single couple. It is beautiful, with all facilities. So I said it is perfectly good. Suddenly, Sheela came with the idea that we can make it a AIDS home.
That, I refused. I said that is not right.


I simply refused, that this cannot be done. This will be endangering all the nearby people, this will be endangering our commune, and I will not support that. So you stop that. So exactly on 4th I came to know, and on 5th, they were going to have the conference, and it had to be cancelled.


I inquired because of that complex, that how much money you have put in that complex, and what you are going to do it now, because AIDS home I will not allow.
Q:* THEY DON'T EVEN WANT AIDS HOMES IN NEW YORK CITY.


A:* No, nowhere, nobody wants. Only Vatican should be compelled to have all the AIDS from all over the world! Because homosexuality is created by their monasteries, and AIDS is the only contribution that Christianity has given to the world.
Q:* IS SUICIDE A PART OF YOUR RELIGION, BECAUSE YOU DO TEACH SUICIDE?


A:* No. My teaching is life-affirmative. Suicide has no place in it. I want to people live as long as possible, with as much health as possible, with as much joy, fun, laughter. Suicide comes nowhere in my vision. Suicide is a Christian idea. The cross symbolizes suicide, and Jesus says, "Everybody has to carry his cross on his shoulders." I say, "Everybody has to carry his guitar on his shoulders." And Jesus looked suicidal -- his face. I don't think he has ever laughed -- at least there is no reference in BIBLE.
Q:* WHY DID YOU LET SHEELA LEAVE? I MEAN, DID YOU TRY TO STOP HER IN ANY WAY?


A:* I had told you before that I was in isolation, and I was in silence, and I was not in contact what was happening.
Q:* WHEN YOU FOUND OUT THAT SHEELA HAD LEFT HERE WHAT EXACTLY DID YOU DO?


A:* Nothing. There is nothing to do. She has left.
Q:* DID IT SURPRISE YOU?


A:* Nothing surprises me.
Q:* DID YOU CALL SOMEBODY ON THE PHONE AND SAY, "WHAT HAPPENED?"


A:* No. No. I simply go my own way. It was time for me to go for my bath. And it takes one-and-half hour for me.
Q:* YOU MEAN YOU DIDN'T GET UPSET, YOU DIDN'T ASK ANYBODY ANY QUESTIONS?


A:* No. Nothing upsets me. That is the difference between an unenlightened person and an enlightened person. Nothing disturbs me, nothing upsets me. I take things, accept it. Whatsoever happened was to happen.
Q:* BUT IF YOU WERE ENLIGHTENED, SHOULDN'T YOU HAVE FIGURED OUT THAT THAT'S WHAT SHE WAS GOING TO DO?


A:* Enlightenment does not mean that you can know future. If you can know future then there is no freedom, then future is already determined. If future is already determined, then only you can know anything about it. To me, future is always open, undetermined and free. So enlightenment cannot help you to know nature of the future.
Q:* DO YOU PLAN TO TALK TO THE FBI YOURSELF AND GIVE A DEPOSITION ABOUT SHEELA?


A:* If they ask me. My attorney power is with my secretary.
Q:* WELL, WOULD SHE BE GIVING IT, OR WOULD YOU BE GIVING IT?


A:* She will be giving it. But if they ask, and if it is necessary...
Q:* BECAUSE THAT'S USUALLY NOT THE WAY THE FBI WORKS.


A:* I don't know. I have never...
Q:* I WRITE ON CRIMINAL MATTERS, AND I KNOW THAT.


A:* We will see. If they want to interview me, I am perfectly happy. To me, it makes no difference whether it is a journalist or an FBI officer.
Q:* THERE ARE SOME SANNYASINS WHO FEEL THEY HAVE BEEN BETRAYED, BECAUSE OF THIS BUSINESS WITH SHEELA. DO YOU EXPECT PEOPLE TO LEAVE THE RANCH NOW?


A:* No, more people will be coming to the ranch who has left. Nobody is going to leave.
Q:* HOW ARE YOU HANDLING THE SANNYASINS WHO DO FEEL BETRAYED?


A:* Mm, that is just momentary and emotional thing. Within two to three weeks it will settle. There is nothing to be worried about it. I understand human mind -- that is my business. There is nothing to be worried.
Q:* AT THE TIME THAT SHEELA LEFT, DID YOU KNOW SHE HAD COMMITTED THESE CRIMES?


A:* No.
Q:* OR DID YOU FIND THIS OUT AFTER SHE LEFT?


A:* After she left, only then. Otherwise she would not have been allowed to leave.
Q:* ARE THERE ANY MORE RUMORS, YOU KNOW, THINGS FLOATING AROUND THAT YOU WANTA SHARE WITH US?


A:* I am not going to collect from people. Whoever comes to the office, to the secretary, to the president, and reports them, they inform me. So whenever anything comes, it can be informed to you immediately.
Q:* SO WHAT'S NEW NOW?


A:* Nothing. All that I have told you.
Q:* WHY DO YOU WEAR A TURQUOISE ROBE? I MEAN, WHY ARE YOU NOT DRESSED IN RED? AT THE FIRST FESTIVAL HERE IT WAS VERY HOT, AND YOU ALSO WORE THE CAP OVER YOUR HEAD. AND I KEPT THINKING, "THE MAN'S GOTTA BE OUT OF HIS MIND TO WEAR A HAT!" (INAUDIBLE BECAUSE SO MUCH LAUGHTER)


A:* It is true. The man is out of his mind. Cap or no cap, but the man is out of his mind.


But you are not aware that my podium is air-conditioned. So you must be feeling hot, I was not feeling hot.
Q:* BUT I SAW YOU IN THE CAR, AND THE CAR YOU WERE DRIVING THEN...


A:*... is air-conditioned.
Q:* IT WAS A HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FIVE OUT!


A:* Yes. It is always there just to keep all kinds of idiotic thoughts that are moving in the air, to keep them out.
Q:* WHY DO YOU WEAR THIS COLOR ROBE?


A:* This is not the only robe. I have many.
Q:* SO WHY DO YOU NOT WEAR A RED COLORED ROBE?


A:* I am not a sannyasin, I am nobody's disciple.
Q:* UH, WOULD YOU LIKE TO COME OVER TO GERMANY FOR A VISIT?


A:* Only after my green card happens, otherwise I am not going to move out of this place.
Q:* WHAT'RE YOU GONNA DO WHEN YOU GET YOUR GREEN CARD? GO TO WORK?


A:* If they want me to go out, they can send the green card tomorrow. They have already delayed it for four years -- which is absolutely illegal -- without any reason. And I have every reason to get it. They have only six classes you can apply for the green card. I have applied on five counts, and they have not been able to refuse even on a single count. And I have told them that if you don't, then I will apply on the sixth count also -- I can get married. That is the only one that is not.... I am still unmarried.
Q:* YOU WILL GET MARRIED IF NECESSARY?


A:* I can get married to as many women as no man has been married ever! Just ask the people of INS how many thousands women are needed for me to marry for the green card. I have one million sannyasins. Out of one million sannyasins, eighty thousand...
Q:* ARE AMERICAN.


A:* All* of all American.
Q:* OKAY. ARE YOU SAYING, AND CAN I QUOTE YOU AS SAYING, THAT IF THEY DO NOT GIVE YOU YOUR GREEN CARD YOU WILL MARRY.


A:* No. First I will fight on these five points.
Q:* AND IF YOU LOSE?


A:* No, because each point will take at least twenty years. Within five points, fighting separately on each point up to the Supreme Court, they all will be dead, I will be dead, and there will be no need for any marriage.
Q:* BUT WOULD YOU MARRY IF IT WAS THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD GET A GREEN CARD?


A:* I am saying that I can marry...
Q:* I SAID TO YOU, "WOULD YOU MARRY IF THAT WAS YOUR TICKET TO A GREEN CARD?"


A:* No.
Q:* WHY NOT?


A:* Not just for green card....
Q:* YOU JUST SAID THAT THERE WERE EIGHTY THOUSAND U.S. SANNYASIN FEMALES.


A:* Yes. I can marry eighty thousand not less than that.
Q:* DO YOU EVER PLAN TO GET MARRIED?


A:* I will have to inquire my legal people.
Q:* YOU WOULD HAVE TO INQUIRE OF WHOM?


A:* My legal people. I have a legal firm. We have four hundred sannyasins who are law experts. I have to inquire them, whether according to American constitution marrying eighty thousand women is okay.
Q:* WOULD YOU GET MARRIED? FORGET ABOUT YOUR INS PROBLEMS...


A:* No.
Q:* YOU INTEND TO REMAIN A BACHELOR?


A:* No. There is no need for me to marry. I love so many women that it is very difficult to choose whom to marry. And I am not a celibate, I am just a bachelor.
Q:* ARE YOU GETTING TIRED?


A:* No, because you are looking at the watch.... Just your last question.

(Tape side D begins here)
Q:* IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SAY TO OUR READERS REGARDING THIS CURRENT SITUATION AND HOW TO REASSURE THEM?


A:* I would like to say to your readers that the going of away of Sheela and her gang is a great rejoicing for my people here, because they were the cause of creating a rift between the commune and the Oregonians, between the commune and the Americans. Now that they are gone the rift need not exist.


For example, I have advised my people that the City of Rajneesh should be renamed again Antelope. It is not good to hurt unnecessarily neighbors, and I have told Antelope people that you should purchase your properties back. Although we have improved your properties -- we have put much money in renovation, prices have gone high in four years -- but we will give you in the same price as we had purchased. If you purchase all the properties, we will vacate Antelope. We don't want any political involvement. We are not political people at all. That is not our interest.


And finally I would like to tell to the whole America that don't treat my commune against the Constitution, because the American Constitution is the only hope for humanity. And if you behave with us unconstitutionally we will have to fight for the Constitution against Americans. That will be a very strange position.


I will also like to Americans to know that everybody in America, except red Indians, is a foreigner. It does not matter whether you came three hundred years ago or two hundred years ago or four years ago. Time does not matter. You may have come a little earlier; we have come a little later. But we are Americans and we are proud of it.


Just the last thing: an anecdote, a real story. One of the greatest mind of this century, George Gurdjieff, was dying. His disciples were gathered to listen to his last message. He was dying in Paris. He opened his eyes and said, "Bravo, America" and died. Since then Gurdjieff's disciples have not been able to figure out why he said, "Bravo, America." It was so unexpected, so unrelated with anything; but I say to my disciples that that message was for me and for my people. I am immensely connected with the Gurdjieffian system of thought. And America certainly is the place where the new man is going to be born. The old countries are too old. Countries like India are almost so dead.


America is the only possibility that we can uncondition people's mind and make them fresh and young. So Gurdjieff's message is my message also. Bravo, America.
Q:* AND, BHAGWAN, IF YOU COULD TALK TO SHEELA RIGHT NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU TELL HER? BECAUSE SHE WILL PROBABLY BE READING THIS IN OUR PAPERS IN EUROPE. PERHAPS YOU WOULD LIKE TO GIVE SHEELA AND HER GANG A MESSAGE.


A:* If she was here, she will be crying and weeping, and I would have to wash her tears. And she will read this, she will cry and weep, and when somebody is weeping it is better not to say anything, but just to wipe the tears and bring the smile back to the face. I will not say anything.
Q:* DO YOU WANT TO SEE HER IN JAIL?


A:* No. Never.
Q:* WELL DON'T YOU FEEL SHE SHOULD BE PROSECUTED IF THERE HAS BEEN ANY CRIMES COMMITTED?


A:* If there has been any crime, then she be put in a mental hospital. She should be treated. She is psychologically sick. And that is my attitude about all criminals, not only about Sheela. No punishment is human, it is just primitive, rude, barbarian. Any cultured society will treat its criminals as psychological patients. So I would like her to be put into a psychiatric nursing home, with respect. Because whatsoever a person does, that is one thing; but his being is totally different. No act defines your being. A man who commits murder should not be called murderer, because it makes his being synonymous with murder.
Q:* WHAT SHOULD HE BE CALLED?


A:* He should be called a man who has committed an act of murder. But his individuality is a far bigger thing, far more valuable, and that individuality can change him. His future can be that of one of the most creative person. So I am against criminals being punished, sent to jail, given death sentence. That is all barbarious.


If Sheela is found and her gang is proved criminal, we have our own university, we have our psychotherapists. If they cannot find any other place, we can take those people and treat them. Or they can find some other place and treat them there.
Every criminal needs respect, love, compassion, and treatment.
Q:* FINALLY, DO YOU OBJECT TO BEING CALLED THE SEX GURU?


A:* I object absolutely.
Q:* WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE CALLED? WHAT DO YOU WANT THE MEDIA IN THIS COUNTRY AND ABROAD TO REFER TO YOU AS? WE ALWAYS REFER TO YOU AS THE SEX GURU OR THE GURU WHO ADVOCATES FREE LOVE... OR THE RICH MAN'S GURU?


A:* That's just cheap journalism.
Q:* BUT YOU HAVE ADVOCATED FREE LOVE?


A:* Do you think that I should advocate that love should be charged? Then you will call me a guru for prostitution. Love has to be free. Two persons decide to love. It is nobody else business to interfere.
Q:* SO THEN YOU DON'T OBJECT TO BEING CALLED THE LOVE GURU, IS THAT IT?


A:* I object to be called a guru.
Q:* WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE US TO CALL YOU?


A:* I would like simply to be called Bhagwan which means the Blessed One, because I am so blissful -- that qualifies me. Anything else is cheap journalism, and I don't think that you will be so cheap.
Q:* I WON'T. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
			

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> Copyright 1964-1990 Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh)
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